The Gilded Age
Much of our class discussion last week hinged on one of the most important topics in any society: the fair distribution of wealth (and since, in every modern society wealth equals power, we can truly say the basis of all class structure in the modern era). In the last century all of the previous social structures were swept away by changes in technology which changed the way that people worked and related to each other. In the confusion that accompanies such changes all the relationships had be re-imagined, based on the question "What is fair?"
Consider this: in every business transaction, there are usually three participants. There is the entrepreneur, the worker, and the customer. All three desire to get the best deal they can; the entrepreneur claims that he or she deserves the profits because of the creativity and risk that went into providing the good or service. The worker wants part of the profits as well because he or she is doing the work, and of course the customer wants a good deal (ie, doesn't want to pay enough to make both the entrepreneur and worker happy). Let's get specific: we are currently enjoying the New York Yankees' trouncing of the hapless Philadelphia Phillies in the World Series. Who deserves to benefit from the spectacle the most? Mr. Steinbrenner (Yankees owner)? Alex Rodriguez (Yankees star baseball player)? And what about the fan sitting in the bleachers?
For years arguments have been made the the "Steibrenners" are either the most important part of the equation, or the least important part of the equation. Now, obviously, this homework assignment isn't about baseball, but about the struggle between big businesses and the working people at the end of the nineteenth century. What do you think? Who deserves the biggest part of the profits - the owners or the workers? And don't make the argument that both of them make enough, because I could have just as easily used an example of a fastfood restaurant owner, worker, and customer. Here are the questions I want you to address:
1) In the context of this discussion, what is fair?
2) How can that fairness be established without unconstitutional government intervention in the workplace? In other words, what kind of agreement must be reached between owners and workers and how can it be maintained for the long-term?
3) What would happen if either side of the equation (owners/workers) were to be too weak to effectively bargain with the other?
In addition, go to the link http://www.hippocampus.org/US%20History%20II and choose two of the following lessons under the "Gilded Age" heading to review and use as evidence in your essays:
Corruption in Business and Government
Entrepreneurs
The Government Steps In
Workers in America
Union Organizations
Major Strikes
As always, 200 words, 150 words of response, due on Friday and Sunday, respectively. Don't put this off to the last minute!
First, I will address what is fair. Fairness is defined as everyone gets equal chance, opportunity, or wealth. Fairness does not exist in an imperfect world. You do not have either of those things in the world, because every circumstance is different. There has to be a loser and a winner. Socialism doesn’t work because it is founded on fairness. It was doomed to fail. Jesus once said in the Bible to give a man without a coat a coat if you had two. This is agued to mean that Socialism is what God intended to be right. However, if you look at the circumstance you would see that it actually means if you see a poor person on the side of the street you should help them. It was never meant to be economic system and its interputation was manipulated to say something completely different from its literal meaning. Jesus was not describing an economic system, rather an attitude. We will not even have equal wealth in heaven. We will be rewarded according to your accomplishments on earth if you are saved. As for the original question, it does not exist.
ReplyDeleteSecond, because of my previous answer, you cannot make something perfectly fair, but you can come close. In order for this to happen, both parties would have to have high morals and a high standard of living. The employer would have to treat the employees like family. There would have to be mutual respect. However, there is absolutely no chance of this ever happing because people tend to cheat other people.
Third, it is not a matter of being too week. Even the slightest shift in power would destroy the entire system. It just doesn’t happen this way.
What is fair?
ReplyDeleteWell, a saying in my mind is “you reap what you sow”. I personally think in the larger spectrum that deals with amounts of money I cannot comprehend the magnitude of, those who work hard and are putting the most amount of effort into the situation should be paid the most. Then we have the customer. They are the individuals actually paying the workers. They need to get what they pay for or they will not support whatever cause it is. In situations today, some are not being paid enough while others are being paid too much and aren’t putting forth any effort (or are cheating in the deal).
How can we achieve the fair level of fairness?
All of us have heard “life’s not fair” at one time or other, but in this case we must strive to achieve the optimal level of fairness in the workplace. It has to be a give-and-take deal. The owners must present the worker with the correct payment according to the level of intensity or demand. If someone isn’t doing a very strenuous or time-consuming job, the payment is less; but the job that is most demanding and hard should be paid more. The worker has to put forth effort though. If the worker is not doing an adequate job accomplishing their task, the owner should not be compelled to provide payment. I know it doesn’t work this way, but in my opinion would be the fairest situation.
What would happen?
We must ask what if. If one side of this equation breaks down, the whole system will fail or at least have temporary shutdown. If the owner is too weak to bargain with the worker, the worker can get what he wants but the owner will lose out on his part. If the worker is too weak to bargain with the owner, the owner has the ability to overtake the independence of the worker. They will be controlling over the workplace more so than they already are/were.
Reality
Now we know what would be the ideal situation, but we must look at reality. Many people can’t work due to physical disability. What happens to them? The government should be responsible for them, but there are others. Should those who work hard take care and provide for those who are not able (poor and homeless)? Of course we also have the underpaid. Some of the most demanding jobs do not even pay close to what the individual should be earning (i.e. teachers). We all know we’ve got to start somewhere though. That’s what fast food restaurants are for.
What is fair for many large companies today is a tough question. In my opinion the owner should get paid more than the workers because they started the business and they are the ones that have the responsibility on keeping that company running. If the company fails then that means that the owner stands to lose everything. On the other hand though the owner should not get so much money from the company that the company struggles to pay it workers a fair pay. A great example is some of our large motor companies like GM, Ford, and Chrysler. The CEOs were getting paid millions and millions of dollars a year that was basically breaking the company. The workers on the other hand should be only paid if they are doing their work correctly and fulfilling the right amount of hours they are supposed to fulfill.
ReplyDeleteHow can we achieve that level of fairness? One is that the owner of the company and the workers should work together and set a standard for what each person gets paid according to their job description. Second, the owner should be observed by the workers to make sure that he is not stealing from the company. I know this sounds like a large task but if the company owners and workers stay honest it is possible because in the end they will all have their share of what they deserve.
What would happen to this plan? Well, if the owner fails to manage the money then the company and the workers will lose. In the end the company would be corrupt and somehow fail. If the workers fail in their part of the plan then the owner will be giving workers money when they really don't deserve it and the owner will lose out because the workers aren't fulfilling their duties.
In reality, this plan wouldn't work because most people today aren't fully honest. For example many Wall Street business owners weren't honest with the workers so that's when the government stepped in and had to send the owner to jail and then take over the company.
What is fair?
ReplyDeleteWell the simplest way I can answer that in this situation would be that it be balanced for each the worker, the owner and the customer. That the entrepreneur gets earns the amount of money he deserves, that the owner pays the workers the amount of money they deserve for working hard, and the customer gets a good deal for what they are purchasing. Back in the time during the second industrial revolution, it was obvious that while the entrepreneurs were thriving off of their brilliant ideas those who were workers suffered. Inventors such as Andrew Carnegie, who focused on the steel making process and jumped ahead of many of his opponents in the 1900s, was producing one quarter of the nation’s steel, but still believed it was his duty to share his wealth by responsibly giving money for charitable causes. Other entrepreneurs followed but as I mentioned before, it caused the division between rich and poor people and though the industries were excelling, there was a need for change. Also, if workers don’t get paid what they deserve, they could go on strike and deprive the owner of the money that they need. Back during the 1900s if the workers protested they were fired and black listed, which means they couldn’t get a job elsewhere either. It was a complete lose-lose situation. To this day, there are still problems such as these and honestly, I don’t believe that it’s always going to be fair unless each side is willing to give a little, like a compromise, but even then it’s never going to be perfect.
How can that fairness be established without unconstitutional government intervention workplace?
Now the constitution does allow regulation of trade, but in the case of when businessmen were at the top of the economic status and the workers were being treated unfairly, it had been agreed that the government over-stepped the worker’s rights. The government was controlling everything; from how many hours a day they had to work, to their housing conditions. There were more women and children working in factories than there had ever been before in history, and it resulted in a couple negative things. For one thing, they were getting paid under minimum wage and not enough to live decently, as well as causing there to be a population decrease, and with the poor living conditions there to be diseases amongst the workers. Also, the government was inconsiderate of the owners, because they took over their job of over-seeing the workers. In answer to the question, one way the government can be fair constitutionally, would be with the anti-trust laws. The anti-trust laws prevent monopolies. That’s one way the government can be involved legally. The government can act as mediators in owner and union discussions.
What would happen if either side of the equation(workers/owners) were to be too weak to effectively bargain with the other?
If unions are too strong they can go on strike and cause the owner to lose a lot of money, unions can also be too demanding(like in the car industry today) if owners are too strong, union workers may all lose their jobs and/or have unfair working conditions.
What does it mean to be “fair?” Webster-Merriam Dictionary defines it as being “marked by impartiality and honesty : free from self-interest, prejudice, or favoritism.” The Bible says in Proverbs 1:3 “do what is right and just and fair.” So how exactly does this apply to government? Is there a system in which everyone is treated fairly? Sure there is, in a perfect world. Sadly, the world you and I live in is fallen and corrupt; light and darkness cannot co-exist, neither can fairness and corruption.
ReplyDeleteThere are two basic economic structures which have thrived in this world-communism and anarchy. (Granted, from these two stem multiple forms.)
Communism is total government control. For instance, in China the government regulates everything from personal income to religion to schools to even orphanages. They say it’s “fair”, because everybody gets what they need. Nobody out-does the other (except for those big rich business men); however, allow me to speak from personal experience: nothing about China is fair; the poverty there is beyond your imagination.
Anarchy on the other hand is total absence of government. Somalia would be somewhat of an example. The country has not had a solid government since 2005; even then I would hardly call its government solid. In a country like this people basically run rampant, until a large religious or sometimes wealthy percentage of the population rises up.
As previously established, a flawless government/economic system does not exist. So where does that leave us? First off, individuals have to learn to be self-sufficient; that is, they cannot be relying on the government for means of life. In order for everything to be fair, everyone has to contribute. When someone works hard, they should be rewarded; those who do not work should not. John Smith established this as a rule during the time of the colony of Jamestown-“those who do not work, shall not eat.”
Second, it is not the government’s job to provide for the needy. Welfare can be a great thing for those who truly need it, but it can detrimental to the country if it is being abused. James 1:27 says, “Religion that God our Father accepts as pure and faultless is this: to look after orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself from being polluted by the world.” It is not the government, rather the church’s job to take care of these people. From the evidence we see in our country, however, the church isn’t doing so wonderfully.
Third, the relationship between business man and worker must be healthy. Not only the relationship, but the workers themselves must be treated right. For what a man does, he should be paid accordingly. It is “not fair” for an owner of a factory to make ten times more than his workers, who do all the work, while the owner sits back and relaxes. Scripture mentions several times things such as, “masters treat your slaves with kindness and vice versa.” Workers aren’t exactly slaves, but in order to stop all these strikes and workers ganging up the solution is simply, treat them right. When rules like these are followed, we see happiness and order.
ReplyDeleteFor all of us who have ideas about what our government is doing wrong, for what we think should be done, and for what we think is not right to do, we have to realize that nothing will ever work out as we believe it should. But in order to voice your opinion strongly and to make it all worth while, you have to understand that nothing about this country will ever be fair for everyone. I’m sorry to be pessimistic, but that’s reality. The best we can do (other than pray and seek God of course) is work hard and try our best to do what we believe is right and what the Bible says is true.
Side note: It’s always interesting to hear people talking about God not being fair and life not being fair. Even I used to be one of those people, but my opinion was changed when I heard a pastor say, “I thank God every day that life is not fair; if it was we’d all be headed straight for hell.” That sounds like one of those “step on your toes” comments, but personally, I find it to be true. God gave us the free gift of salvation by sending his one and only Son to die for us, and we didn’t deserve it the least little bit. Now you tell me what’s not fair…
What is fair?
ReplyDeleteI think that it is only fair that you get adequate pay for the work that you do. The workers who do the job should be paid based upon their time of work, skill of labor they are doing, and the demand for their job. I think if they work a tough job with a lot of hours, and do it well they should be paid well. Next, the customer wants to get a fair price for what they get. Like the yankees fans, they should have to pay decent money because their team is doing well, but if their team was bad they shouldn’t. The only position that doesn’t agree with this concept, the owner. But they should be paid the most because they took the risk.
How can fairness be established?
Fairness distribution almost explains itself if you understand what IS fair. If you do your job well you get paid well. If you do a hard or time-consuming job you get paid higher amounts. And like above when I said that the owner gets the most because they took the risk, they get the most reward from it in a fair economy.
What if one is too weak?
This question is pretty self explanitory. If the worker becomes to weak to do his job then he should be taken care of if he has done adequate work in the past, but the company could shut down if they all become to weak. If the owner becomes to weak to support his employess they shut down. And if the customer becomes to weak, they can’t pay for the goods or services and the company shuts down. So in all, if one becomes too weak, the company shuts down, at least temporarily.
We all know that the world we live in today is not perfect. We have people who cheat, scam, lie and do whatever it takes to get the most amount of money, even if they don't need it. We also have those people who will do or try to do whatever they can to make money because they simply don't have enough to own a house or eat everyday. The world is not fair and it will most likely never be.
ReplyDeleteHowever, what is fair? I like what Caleb and Emily have said so far and will use some of their examples a few times. Caleb said their has to be a winner and a loser, their can't be both and I completely agree with this. Emily said, “You reap what you sow”, again I agree with this completely. So, who do I think should be making the bigger profits? The worker or the owner. The worker works hard right and probably deserves the most don't you think? No, I don't. Personally, I think the owner of the company deserves the most amount of money in most situations. Usually, somewhere along the line that owner had to work very hard to get to were he was at. Usually it is going to school for many, many years, working hard, and being diligent. You reap what you sow. They worked hard and they deserve to reap from that. Now that doesn't mean the worker didn't work hard. Depending on the job, they probably went to college for a few years too. However, somewhere that owner did something better than the worker to put him in a higher position and ultimately in the position of an owner. Every one in the United States of America has an equal chance to become something great and make lots of money, but you have to work hard. You can't expect the money to just fall at your feet. Working harder than someone else deserves more benefits that that person. Why do you think a 30 year old ER doctor gets paid more than a 30 year old McDonald's cashier? That ER doctor went to school for over 10 years probably and the McDonald's cashier probably never even graduated high school or went onto college. You work hard, you benefit from it. Put yourself in a owners shoes. If you went to school for many many years and took the risks, invested the money, worked for years on getting your company up and running would you want anyone under you making more money than you? I personally wouldn't. Also, if it wasn't for that owner, the worker wouldn't have a job in the first place so they owe a great dept to the owner in some respect.
Like I said, this is not always true. Some owners get it from their parents when they hand it down or something along those lines. While maybe they didn't go to college for long or at all I still in someway think they deserve more. Somewhere in their family someone made a decision, a risk, and it payed off. It is up to that son or daughter to realize that their parent(s) worked hard and I should too. That doesn't always happen and you have those people who are just big jerks and like to spend and waste money that they don't deserve to use like that. Examples being the large car company CEO's flying to meeting in 100k+ jets and spending money on expensive food and expenses when they are asking for a bailout. Life isn't fair and things don't always work out how they should, but one day we will be in a place were everything does work out the way it should and the Owner really does know how to run the company.
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ReplyDeletetoday there is a constant debate about socialism and capitalism and the balance that should exist if any. there are several different sides to the argument, there a people who are extremists that want only the extremes of either side and then there are those in the middle.
ReplyDeletethe important thing to remember is our begingings and where we came from and the freedoms that were or just as important were not established. today the technology revolution is apperent. however, the same principles of business apply. capitalism will not work without a moral foundaton in all areas of business (owner, worker, and consumer). in the same way socialism looks good on paper but when it is put into practice coruption is its downfall, when you rely on one person or political party to fairly dispurse the wealth coruption is nearly inevidable. one main point is that capitalism creates industry when socialism discourages ingenuity and creativity. when we all make the same amount there is no motivation for new business. When you really examine these big businesses you discover that these "evil misers" in many cases are not that at all, they in many cases are smart and hard working men or women that use their talents and gifts to take risks and make profit. though there will always be coruption without a moral and ethical foundation.
based on fair, you have to look and what fair really is. the owner has in most cases taken a risk and made money and used his skills to produce a produce, now the people that actually work and produce the product have a right to be fairly paid for the amount of work they do, when you get into the business of blaming the owner for not paying enough you must look at the actual rate of production and the gdp. the customer is just as competitive as the owner and there is a constant tug game that goes back and forth which creates competition. Government involvment must only create a level playing field, not socialism or "government" restriction or extreme regulation, the government should fight coruption but not regulate the amount of profit a hard working company makes, if its illegal it should be stopped but if not it should be allowed to remain, however, monopolies are a very different matter, competition is the fuel of capitalism and for competition there must be either pure morality or some small regulated government regulation, that fits the cercumstance.
unions i think today have been blown way out of proportion and have abused their power that has been granted them. but if you look at it they were and are needed. without a doubt unions are responsible for forming a safe work place that benifits everyone, for example mining. mining has become safer and more productive due to the intervention of mining unions. however, there are many examples of their abuse of the system. it is proven by a long track record that when the government either gets involoved or takes over any part of business the quality of certain things goes down as well as the productivity of that industry. it all comes back to a moral foundation that gives a responsibility to both parties of the equation. its important to remember that if either side failed to exist, either the owner or worker, the system would fail to work. this same thing applies to one side becoming too strong. that is were unions have a somewhat possitive role, but when they become to powerful they become corupt and the system creates an unfair and complicated disfunctional system, this also applies to the owner. here's what i think it comes down to, socialism will always fail no matter the way form or fation it is emplemented, it has never in history been successful in the long term. the system with the successful and functional processes that gives the most fairness to every party is capitalism, it all comes back to the moral foundation that must exist for it to function.
In response to number one; what is fair? is there any buisiness transaction that will ever be “fair”? and if there is a “fair” system, is it a plausible system that will work for anyone in the system in the long-term and not just make it equally bad for everyone; can any profit be made in any “fair” or “equal” system? And who has the right to say what “fair” is, anyway? Is it the customer, who wants the best quality at the lowest price, and takes all the profit from the worker and entrepeneur? Or maybe the worker, who wants to make a high rate of profit for his time at the workplace, and causes the customer to be unable to afford the product, which causes the entrepeneur to be unable to keep the buisiness running? Or the entrepeneur, who wants all the profit from his product,and gives the customer a bad deal, and pays the worker unfairly low wages? Or is there a “fair” system in compromise between all three parts of the equation? The three will either argue and make no progress, or they will compromise and no one will end up happy. In truth this “fair” system of buisiness that we search for is a paradox. If any balane could be found it would be a balanced loss for everyone.
ReplyDeleteAnd in response to number two; how can a fair system be achieved in a system of buisiness without unconstitutional government intervention? I will answer this in several parts, the first of which is; what qualifies how much the government can intervene in a buisiness before it is unconstitutional? Any line that is drawn maybe right for buisiness a, but not buisiness b or c; and if the line is right for b then it may not be right for a or c; and if the line changes for each buisiness or situation, how can that line be enforced in a practical way, or can it? The next part of my answer, what if government had no part in buisiness? When you take the government out of a system of buisiness then the entire system falls apart. Take for example Enron, which failed because the entrepeneurs of the buisiness were embezzling and taking the profits from their customers. They were able to do this because the government did not monitor Enron as carefully as they should.the third part of my answer deals with the exact opposite end, what happens when the government controls the buisinesses completely, take Canada for example, eh. Their healthcare is run by the government , which reduced the quality, and costs the people an excessive amount of money in their taxes every year, and we want to have a similar system here in america why?
The third question asks what if one end of the equations were too weak to bargain. If that happened then the system would become unbalanced and would no longer work for the people on the bottom, who would then join together and create labor unions , therefore balancing the system again. This happens because systems have a tendency, when the right circumstances are present, to reach an equilibrium, which is not always fair for everyone, but is a workable system.
By the way, feel free to pointout anything that is incorrect, fallacious or wrong. I DID insert my opinion, so if you disagree,bring it up. You can email me at mizetyler@gmail.com
What i think is fair;
ReplyDeleteaccording to my computers dictonary, fair is "in accordance with rules or standards, legitimate". I think that we can't truely under stand the meaning of "fair" on our own. Fair is kind of a syninim with just, right, and correct. I think that humans can't really understand just how fair "fair" is, because we are sinful creatures. But, i think that we can find what God thinks is fair in the bible. I'm not saying that you can never be fair, i'm just saying that i don't think we can completly understand being fair.
Well obviously, if everyone was a good christian, there would be no problem(i'm not saying that the government should control the chirch!). But, since not everyone's a christian, here's what i think. I don't think that there needs to be a long written out agreement between workers and employers. It seems to me that its as simple as if the employer provides good working conditions, enough pay to make the workers happy, and stuff like that, the workers will content. But, if the employer does the opposite, that the workers will either quit work, or go on strike.
If say, the company was the only company around, then i guess the company could force certain working conditions on the employees. Or, if the employees became to powerful, they could basically control the company.
Sorry, Mr akers, i've been really sick(not the swine flue!) and i hope i get better soon, so i can come back to school.
First I would like start in the same way as most people what is fair. I am starting this way because Mr. Akers seemed to really stress it in the question. Fairness is something that only God can accurately judge. Whe reason I say this is because people will all ways have biases toward one side or the others.
ReplyDeleteNow what I think would be the most fair option. Obveously both sides have a good point. The workers do deserve part of the profites, but the owner deserves them profit also. Now in my opinion the owner deserves more of the profit then the workers. I say this because the owner goes through more risks and has more to lose. They also had to put the money up front to start the endevoure and any other extra costs.
Now is the issue of how much the workers get from the profits. I think that the amount of the profits that the workers get should be porportional to the difficulty of the work that they are doing. For example some one who is doing a factory job where no skill is needed does not deserve as much as a doctor or a lawyer who went to school for many years to get the knowledge they need to do their job.
So what I am saying is that the more skilled a job the more the woker should make. This is the only fair thing I can think of that would not only give the workers the desire to work harder but also make sure that the workers do not start abusing the position that they are in like some of the labor unions have done in the past.
Hmmm this is a fairly lengthy question, I'm gonna need some more space haha.
ReplyDeleteWell being fair in the world of business is always a tough discussion. When you think about it, the consumer is kind of like a barometer for businesses to go by. If the standard consumer feels a product is too expensive, they won't buy it. If the consumer does't buy the product, supply will go up and demand will go down. If people stop buying, the business will stop producing the product. The business will begin to lay off employees. The business will go into a tailspin. On the flip side of that, lets say the standard consumer feels the price of a certain product is perfect. The consumer(s) begins to buy more of the product. The business that produces this product notices that sales are up, and they begin to step up production. They hire more workers. Production goes up. Demand stays high, and supply stays high. The price is steady. The entrepreneur makes a profit, as well as being able to pay his workers a good salary because production is up. THIS IS A PERFECT ECONOMY. THIS IS THE PERFECT EXAMPLE OF FAIRNESS.
In regards to the second question, I feel a sense of empathy is required. The entrepreneur must put him/herself in the workers shoes and imagine what it must be like to live paycheck to paycheck. The worker might possibly not have a job tomorrow.
And the third question, if one or the other became too weak to discuss terms, is fairly straight-forward. If both sections of the company aren't on the same page, the company just plain wont function. People will become unsatisfied with their products.
Pope, I really liked how you talked about getting back to our roots as a population. Whether most of Americans realize it or not, were a Christian nation, and we were FOUNDED as ONE NATION UNDER GOD. Our ideals of capitalism (woot!) and free-enterprise are always (hopefully) going to be a part of our society, and we need not stray away from them.
ReplyDeleteNice Work Pope
Camden, I agree with your statement about how much money you should earn. If you flip burgers at Mcdonalds, you should earn minimum wage. If your a lawyer, you should be making a six-digit salary. Because you put in the hours in college, you used A LOT of your valuable time studying and working hard for that degree.
ReplyDeleteNice Camden
Jacob, you brought up a point that I think I failed to address in my essay. The owner came up with the idea, so he should be rewarded. How much do they work? Well, most get others to do the hard labor for them and they get paid because they run the operation and actually came up with the idea. I think that’s what invention and opportunity is about, coming up with successful ideas and inventions that allow you to get paid without having to do a substantial amount of hard labor is what.
ReplyDeleteSam, I really liked you first paragraph. We have to look at how much control the consumer has. If they don’t like it, they won’t buy it. We have to look at the original intent of the productions. Are they for the pleasure of making it? No, it’s for the consumer to buy it. This is the fairest system. How else would it work? If we look at the whole picture, we can see how beneficial and good the current system is. When we keep corruption and other abuses out of it, it will work.
ReplyDelete1)what is fairness.
ReplyDeletewell in the time we are tlking about factory owners/employers were being extremely unfair.By that i mean they would cheat anyone out of a position or job just so that theyould make a few extra bucks.But fairness would be the one most qualified to do the job,not the one who who will do it the cheapest or the one that the one hiring likes or knows better.
2)how can a long term agreement come between (workers/owners)
For there too be a long term worker in the same place there must some sort of common ground between the worker and employer.Such as liveible woring conditions,and a good pay,and benifiets for the worker.So basicly no cutting corners for the employer
3) What would happen if either side of the equation (owners/workers) were to be too weak to effectively bargain with the other.
What i think would happen is either the employees/workers would either strike or quit to find better jobs somewhere els.And the owners/employers would have to lower there employee standards or possibly have to close down there factories or buisneses.
emily
ReplyDeletei agree with your in much of what your essay disscusses. the points you make throughout the essay are very important to remember, especially your point in the third paragraph about the different sides. its quite obvious that peoples personal situation effects peoples descisions on politics and other controversies. we are all guilty of this in one way or another. however, you make all view points clear and issues that face us today in reality. if we lose sight of reality we trade truth for a lie. we must remember our foundations as christians. it will take a moral revolution to reform our country back to its origins of CHristian principles. now by no means are we perfect but it will take christians standing up for issues and bringing reform in the correct context for america to be the God fearing country it once was and is still some ways. emily your essay was very good and thoughtful. great job
sam
ReplyDeletei think your essay is very good in pointing out the holes that result from an immoral or "unfair" economy. I think its fair to say that a fair economy will never exist because we live in a fallen world. (no pun intended). overall, your essay was very thoughtful andmade some very key points to the survival of our national and world economy. obviously there will always be coruption but limiting the corruption and creating a level playing field, not socialism!!!! is the way to bulid and manage an economy. your essay was very good and i enjoyed it
1) What is fair… I’ll answer this first. Fairness is simply defined is equality, but in the real world there is really nothing that is fair. The entrepreneur believes that since they started the business that they should make the majority of the money, which is completely understandable. But once they begin to succeed the workers believe that they should be paid more, though they aren’t the ones that took the risk to start the business.
ReplyDeleteWhat I believe to be fair is that the one who started the business should be paid more but not so much that their workers are subjected to pay below the norm. Because we do not want to fall down to the level of where we were at the end of the Civil War and the beginning of the 20th century. When the workers and factories were in very bad condition and there was no way for a disabled (permanent or temporary) person to be able to keep a job to support their families. Which also resulted in many strikes and violent uprisings involving the government.
2) But then we come to the fact that we as consumers do not want to pay for the products that are made, we want a cheap product and we don’t care how much the workers are paid as long as we don’t have to pay too large a price. when we think of this we need to think that we as a nation have a system and it’s laissez-faire and this means that the government takes a hands off approach to our economy. And just think if they didn’t what would our economy be like, it would be no better that’s for sure.
You also want to avoid nepotism, or hiring ones relatives , because this would cause great conflict in the work place. For one thing they would expect to be paid a little more than the rest of your employees and though they maybe related to you that is not good enough grounds for higher wages without the proper experience.
I am going to say that it is imperative that we do this on our own, and not involve the government. Because one it’s unconstitutional and second if the government decides to help in the work place it’s verging on a socialistic society. so what I believe would be the best for the work place is for an agreement to be made between the owner and the workers{ by a meeting on mutual terms} and if this could be accomplished on reasonable terms then it would be good for both the worker and employer. And yes, this may result in higher prices but they would be better products made here in the USA which would boost our economy.
3) But if these people would not come together to settle their differences it would be a disaster. Because if the workers would not be heard there could be strikes and law suits. Either way you put it the result would not be very pretty. And if this continued the government couldn’t help itself but to step in and make it right, and the end result would not be any brighter because the government would consider that business to be theirs and they would run it how they saw fit not caring about the person who took the risk and started the business.
Maxwell, I agree with you. I believe that the person that strats the buisness should be paid more but not to the exttent that it almost brakes the back of the cpmpany.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also agree with you that the owners should stay honest because if they don't they would be stealing from the company which could result in possibnle jail time and the government taking over their buisness.
I also thought that the reference of Wall Street and the recent discoveries of dishonesty amoung some of the shareholders was good too.
Good job on your essay.
What is fair? I believe everyone deserves to be paid for their work. However, those who work harder, those who get an education, those with more responsibilities and those who take more risk deserve more. However, someone doesn’t first determine who deserves what and what is fair and then gives it to them, the invisible hand of the market does that; and an extremely well job it does.
ReplyDeleteThe seller or inventor gets whatever the market is willing to pay according to supply and demand. The consumer can choose not to pay for an item because it is too expensive. If the price is too high not enough people will buy, and the price goes down. If the price is low many people will buy and the price will go up. It’s just how the market works with supply and demand. Labor is also a supply and demand industry. What a worker’s pay is is determined by the supply and demand of workers. There is obviously a higher supply of people who can work at McDonald’s than educated men who can be a doctor, so the doctor gets higher pay. And I don’t think many would disagree that a doctor deserves more than a burger flipper.
Since the invisible hand of the market does such a good job of running the economy, the government does not need to do much. However, the government does need to regulate some things to ensure no one gets abused or taken advantage of. Most everyone would agree there is something wrong with seven year olds working twenty hour a day shifts in a factory and being whipped if they do not meet their quota. The government needs to regulate some things such as age limits of workers and how they are treated. However, the government does not need to regulate many things such as how high private companies can pay someone or how much a company can fail. The government has absolutely no business bailing out banks or auto makers. In capitalism, you are free to work, free to learn, free to take risks, and free to succeed or fail. Who is the government to put caps on success or failure?
There is an important balance of power between owners and workers. If owners became too powerful they could intimidate and abuse the workers. If the workers became too powerful they could make unfair demands on the employer. The government does help regulate that power, but the market does help even it out. Workers can always quit if they have a problem with the employer, and the employer can always fire bad employees. There are many other things too such as labor unions, strikes, and lawsuits. However, if the employer will treat the employees well they will most likely not resort to these measures. Likewise if the employee does a good job at their work, they will probably not get fired.
Capitalism is not a perfect system, but it has performed better and worked longer than any other economic system in history.
Emily, I thought our essay was really good. I agree with you that those that take the risk to start a buisness should get paid more but not to the extent that they are cheating the buisness.
ReplyDeleteAnd I also used the fact that life is not fair in my essay too. And it is all too evident in our society today that there are big differences in the upper class and were our economic status stands at. And that should not be so, because as you said there are those that put tons of time and effort in that get paid what they deserve and then there are those that who barely work and get paid extreme amounts of money. And I completely agree with you, there are many professions that should be paid more but do aren't...
What is fair? Well, sometimes it seems like everybody should have equal wealth and power. But it doesn’t work that way, nor is it even fair in the first place. In pure capitalism, there has to be a winner and a loser. A person that takes a successful risk and works hard to start a business will reap the benefits. Once they finally get it going, they often don’t have to face stressful situations because of wise efforts in the past. Then, I think it would be fair that his workers be paid according to the amount of intensity in their specific job (also, by how hard they work). Now, in certain situations, people should be paid a lot even though they may not have as much stress as Bob over here. Bob may not have taken advantage of an opportunity earlier. Certain things make absolutely no sense to me, like how professional athletes can get paid millions of dollars while riding the pine (meaning they don’t even play half the time). I heard of a pitcher who got something like a 2 year, 38 million dollar deal to pitch in the MLB. Within a year, he was in the minor leagues because he didn’t turn out that good (he didn’t work hard). Stuff like that never seems logical to me.
ReplyDeleteThere must be a balanced agreement between the owners and the workers. I think owners should be paid more because they started the business/company and took the necessary risks. But they should not be paid so much that there is not a fair pay for the workers. The owners and workers should make an agreement and accept terms. The owners should be honest with them and keep the company heading in the right direction. The workers need to work hard for the required number of hours. If they are lazy, the dude in charge reserves the right to get rid of them. If the owners and workers abide by both sides of the equation, the business will stay afloat.
If either side of the equation were too weak, the whole system would break down quickly. If the owner is too weak, he will not manage the money well and the company will collapse. If the workers do not do as expected of them, they are being paid too much and the quality of the products or the reputation of the company/business will fall.
Roberto, I think you made a very good point in your essay. Workers who do have large risks in their job should get paid more. Certain jobs like welding or steel workers do have a very large risk in their job. A job that requires welding for many long hours will in a few years make you go somewhat deaf, blind, or cause certain health problems. Steel workers have to deal with very heavy pieces of steel that could fall and crush them or they could get fingers cut off which could end their career as a steel worker. In the end many people that work jobs like these or similar ones should get paid a large sum for their risk because it my cause them to get hurt on the job and therefore force them to get a disability or find a job that they can do.
ReplyDeleteCaleben, I like how you included the definition of fairness in your essay. Some people don't really understand the true definition of it. For example the Wall Street businessmen that went to jail for stealing and cheating their company. They really didn't understand it at all because they underpaid their employees that really did deserve more. Fairness is much needed in today's businesses.
ReplyDeleteIn my oppinion, there's no such thing as a good economic system. There are those which have winners and losers, rich and poor, and there are those which promote complete equality and an inability to reach one's full potential. Which sounds best...? Neither.
ReplyDeleteFairness is equality. Equality lacks winners and losers. I don't know about you, but I feel that the possibility of losing is something I can deal with, if occasionally I can win. In today's business world there are winners and losers, despite the oppinion that we're in the depths of socialism or sliding down an unclimable slope. In most business cases you have the entrepreneur, the people who do all the work for the entrepreneur, and the customer. As far as the importance of each role, I have a hard time deciding.
The entrepreneur is the talented individual with all the bright ideas who risks his money for his cause. Unfortunately, after the entrepreneur has began his business, he usually sits back and relaxes while the workers do all the dirty work. The workers toil hardly and then get jipped by customers who demand the best quality at the lowest price. I think there must be balance and understanding from all three parties.
First, the entrepreneur must be willing to perform hard labor even after he/she has done all they are REQUIRED to. Second, the worker must understand that their existence is riding on their employer and that sacrifice is required. Lastly, the customer must recognize that quality costs a pretty penny, and they need not complain. In the case that one party did not follow these guidelines the whole system would collapse: corruption, and we see it everyday. No wonder some are asking for socialism in America.
To quote myself from the above paragraph, "Sacrifice is required." That seems to be my theme for economy. In order for our economy to function and a round-about sense of equality to exist, we all must sacrifice. We all must lose our selfish selves and work for the good of those around us. As a Christian, this should be easier to us to understand because the Bible requires the same of us.
I guess my comment is for almost everyone, because about everyone said this: "the owner deserves more of the profit then the workers because the owner goes through more risks and has more to lose."
ReplyDeleteI understand where you're coming from for sure, (I know if I ever start a business and it's my idea and my money backing the company then I want big profit) but what if the case was an owner who just sits back in his-her easy-chair and the workers are the one's doing all the work, while the owner begs for his money. It doesn't really seem right; doesn't really seem fair.
The workers are the one's who do what the owner doesn't want to or can't do. In my oppinion, it's hard to decide who desrves the biggest chunk. I find myself kind of hypnotized because I can't imagine the owner nto getting a HUGE paycheck, but what if the one who does the most on a daily basis received it? Just something to think about.
What is fair? Fair "in a perfect world" would be equal opportunities for everyone, and everyone succeeding equally, and no single man being left behind. However, we do not live in a perfect world. There is no such thing as fairness.
ReplyDeleteThe root of this debate comes from a communistic philosophy versus a capitalistic philosophy. People, by nature, are lazy. When they know they cannot 'get a leg up' on their fellow man, many (as they should be) are discouraged to try their best and will only do the minimum to get by. After all, whats the point? In the same sense, many people will stop working at all if they know the others will take care of their needs.
In a capitalistic society, the harder you work to get an education, the more opportunities you will have. The better you use your opportunities, the more successful you'll be. However, not everyone has equal opportunities: not everyone is born into a family that supports them, or has the money to send them off to college. Those people wind up working long hours just barely making it by. That isn't "fair". But neither is working all day to not only support your family, but support some other guy who is perfectly able to work, but chooses not to because he knows you will pay his way.
My point in saying all of this? We live in a flawed world. There is no such thing as fair. We can try our best to find that line, and we will swing from one extreme to another trying to find a balance. Lets just hope American doesn't swing too far.
Fair as old Mr. Webster said it, is free from favoritism, self-intrust, bias, or deception. Now you can argue this definition the same as truth, but you will eventually come back to something similar to what Webster said. I understand that depending on which end you are on (receiving the profit or providing it) plays a big part in what your opinion is.
ReplyDeleteAfter starting school last year I started noticing things that I had never really noticed before. The major thing that came to light is the power that people with money have. I have seen even more of it this year. My dad says that its just a fact of life and I should get over it. I know that I can’t be the only person that sees this.
It is the same with big businesses and the workers that run the business. Now doesn’t it seam odd that the people who are doing all the work are the least paid? And also that the really rich people are usually the ones that stepped on other people to get there? Enter that annoying little fraise “Life isn’t fair”. That’s just the way it is, and no, I don’t agree.
I honestly don’t think that there will ever be a solution to this problem. And trust me if there is ever an agreement made about this between owners and workers, there will still be someone making a profit. If the profit goes to the worker, he will almost always want more. But if the profit goes to the owner, then it goes to his weekend vacation fund.
I’m not saying that I do or don’t agree with all of this. I just don’t agree with the fact that people use their money to get what they want or get special privileges because of it.
What is fair? Well, the entrepreneur or the owner, should be paid the most because, he had to risk more to get where he is. The owner started the business and is responsible for keeping the business running. On the other hand, the worker, should get paid for what he does, which is usually something that nobody wants to do, because, were all lazy. No, the worker probably wont get paid top dollar, because he shouldn't, he came in, and asked the owner for a job at his company. He cant pay the workers a big amount, in order to make profit on what the workers are making. And when business is bad, people get laid off, and salary cuts are made, which might be because of the worker, slacking off, or sending a faulty item out, sometimes it could be the owner, ordering the wrong material on accident , or maybe the customer, for not wanting to pay so much for something. Sometimes people think that its unfair for the owner to make so much more than the worker,I think its fair that the owner makes the most, the worker makes the least, and the customer should get a good deal.
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ReplyDeleteWell in my opinion the verse from the Bible fits right in if you won't work you won't eat. I believe the worker deserves the most money because he is working harder than the owner of the company almost always. If they are lazy on the other hand fire em kick them out the door they don't deserve to be paid to do nothing. I think the harder that you work and the more hours you put in should be the person that gets paid the most if the owner is up there not off on vacation every month then he probably deserves the position he is in.
ReplyDeleteIf you are a hard worker doing the right thing working hard and getting paid to do what you are supposed to then you deserve to be in a position of authority and therefore should earn more money than the lazy bum reclining in his lazy boy on the top floor of the office building.
The owner on the other hand is going to be trying as hard as he can to make the most money possible take Bill Gates for example he owns one very profitable businesses and I am sure he probably is paying someone to basically do everything for him except for the really big decisions and then having these people do most of the work for him so he gets the most profit by paying someone to do his job for him while the person he is paying to do that is probably getting a lot less than half of the amount he gets paid and for what reason GREED so that's what i think the hard workers deserve to be paid more for working hard not the lazy guys who pay someone to do their job for them.
Darn...another assignment that'll take a while to do. What is fair? (Not this homework assignment) Well, I'm giving an opinion here, I'm not sure if I know what is truly and ultimately fair, but I'll give my thought on it. As for a balance of fairness between entrepreneurs, workers, and customers, I think that most situations are different and require different distributions. Complete fairness, I think, would exist in a situation where the entrepreneurs and workers get exactly what they deserve to get(but not more) based on the work/risk/creativity/thought/etc. that they contributed from the customer. Now, this exists in few situations today. Sometimes the customers have to pay a lot more than they should for goods/services. Sometimes workers toil all day for little pay. And sometimes entrepreneurs are barely making enough to pay their workers (or less), and thus no profits or negative profits.
ReplyDeleteHow can that fairness be established without unconstitutional government intervention in the workplace? In other words, what kind of agreement must be reached between owners and workers and how can it be maintained for the long-term? I couldn't figure out an answer for this one. But, I mean, does anyone really know the a perfect solution to this? A way to have complete fairness exist? I think that it would take one of the world's smartest problem solvers to figure it out. And wouldn't we be using this method if someone found it?
What would happen if either side of the equation (owners/workers) were to be too weak to effectively bargain with the other? Well, I think that that the other side would then be in complete control until there was intervention from something else such as the government.
What is fair?
ReplyDeleteFirst off it is nearly impossible to make anything fair in this world. No matter how hard you try there is someone who is going to complain because you didn't do it their way or the one complaining didn't try hard enough and they lose. I do see that it is fair form someone to work their fingers to the bone and get paid more. What I don't like is when someone complains about not getting paid enough when it is their own fault. They were either lazy in school or they just wanted an easy job. Yet, I do understand that some people are not able to be successful because of a handicap, or they failed at an attempt to advance and now feel stuck in their current situation.
How can fairness be established between the employer and the worker? For an example, let's say you work at a bakery and you don't feel like your boss is paying you enough for your labor. You can talk it over with your boss, but he still makes the decision about giving the raise or not. So I really don't know a way that you can establish complete fairness in business.
I think that if the person is too weak to negotiate, then they won't get what they want or it could even end up worse for them. The boss could end up giving them more money, less money or maybe they would just go back to the pay they were receiving.
Ok so for the questioin what is fair? Well in my opinion fairness is everyone getting exactly what they deserve. However in the world we live in this doesn't happen. Sometimes people don't deserve what they get yet the still get it. I remember when my brother or sister would get something and I would tell my mom that it wasn't fair and she would say well life isn't fair. Thats how I look a it. Life isn't fair people get cheated out of what the deserve. I don't see how we can have complete fairness when we live in an imperfect world. People try to maintain some sort of balance and equality but is there ever real fairness?
ReplyDeleteAs for the second question I am not really sure how to answer this. I know that the worker should get payed for what he actually does and accomplishes. Lets say there were two workers who worked at the same place and did the same thing. If one was always doing a half way job and the other had everything done just how it should be then the one who was accomplishing more should be payed more. Thats simple to understand. The more effort and time you put in the more you should get out of it. If you were to pay the same to both then we would end up with a lazy economy that didn't get much done. I mean if someone could get payed the same for barely doing a thing then why would the other person want to invest that much time and energy when they can still get payed the same ammount and not have to work so hard. But back to the actual question. I really don't know how they could establish an agreement. However I do think that the owner should be payed more because they are the ones who keep it all together. Without someone to own the business and invest in it then you couldn't have the workers in the first place.
And now the third question. Well I think that if one side is too weak then one side will end up being too strong. Again not sure how to answer this completely but I do think that you have to be firm enough that people don't walk ontop of you and push you around yet you have to be willing to give at times. Thats just my thought on it.
Everything I write in this essay is completely my opinion. It is not as highly valued, nor as educated as some, but it is mine. This is just what I have to say about the proposed questions.
ReplyDeleteThere are two main sides to the “equation” of business. Entrepreneurs and workers. One is entirely useless without the other. No matter how creative an idea the entrepreneur may have, it’s all vain without workers to carry out the main plan. On that same note, the worker needs a job. Both of these groups of people are extremely important to each other and both are seeking to make a profit. However, my opinion is that the entrepreneur should bring home the highest profit. I mean, think about it. They just spent their time, efforts, and probably took out a massive loan in attempt to start a business. They can only hope it will be successful. They can only hope it won’t crash and burn. So they’re the ones who had the idea, spent the money, and took the risk. It just seems fair that they should be the ones bringing home the largest amount of money.
The only way I see that a company can maintain fairness in their distribution of the profit without government involvement is a blueprint. When I say blueprint, I mean a detailed plan of how this show is going to run. Just sit down and lay it all out on the table. Here’s the entire profit: this much goes to the person who came up with this whole thing, this much goes to the people who make the wheels turn (workers of course). Make the plan from the very beginning and honestly stick to it for so long as this company shall exist.
If the owner of the business were not strong enough to stand up and say, “Hey, this is all my idea. I made this a possibility in the first place. Therefore, this amount of money is mine,” then he would be taken advantage of and would lose benefits that he earned and deserved. On the other hand, if the workers were weak and wouldn’t stand up for their rights, then they would simply be being run over by their “boss.” They would also be losing the benefits they’d worked so hard for. They would probably eventually quit in large numbers causing serious problems in the work force of that particular job. So it’s obviously quite important that honesty and integrity, as well as a strong backbone are maintained in order for this business equation to equal success.
Whats fair and what isn't? Ok thats a pretty big question. Fair is each individual in this world getting what they deserve.( Example: One person works hard through highschool goes onto college an becomes a doctor. He gets paid lets say 50 dollars an hour and ends up doing very well for themself. Then you have a person who fools around throughout highschool doesnt go onto college and goes to work in a restraunt or some low paying job and ends up struggling to make ends meet. Well ok so you may feel bad for this person that struggles to make enough money for themself an maybe their family but it is only fair that the person that worked harder to get where he is now gets payed what he is now. I dont see it as fair when the government takes away the ability for the person that worked harder to make more money and then turn around an give it to the person that didnt work as hard for it and ended up not to well off.
ReplyDeleteNow fairness can be interpretted many ways by different people. Now workers MAY think its fair that they get payed more than the owner of the business or as much because without them the business cant prosper but the owner may not see it that way. Because the business owner did go through the process of of building their business and risking the money they had and the growing pains of getting the business to grow and do well. Then of course they have to regulate everything and make sure the business keeps doing well and stays on its feet.
Personally I think its right that the business owner gets more pay than the worker. But also the worker needs to be payed exactly according to how they work, time effort ect... And the worker of course needs to be treated fairly and have a safe work environment and so on. For everything to be fair the owner is going to have to be HONEST and whatever else it take to be fair. Although because people are so sinful I really dont think everything is ever going to be completely fair it just a hard fact of life. But i think that a person should be payed according to his work ( no more no less ).
If one side or the other is too weak then its obviously not going to end up to good. If the owner is to weak then the workers are going to run all over them and the business is going to go under. So the owner is going to have to establish their authority be the boss. However if the workers become to weak then They will get taken advantage of by the owner and not get paid or treated fairly. So in the end its going to take honesty, strong firm leadership to make this all work.
Everyone assumes that all people deserve pay for the amount of work they do. This is not a wrong assumption. In fact if everyone held this
ReplyDeleteview the world would probably be better for it. But anyway, the owners and the employees should reach a mutual agreement with the workers supplying the product and the management keeping the company afloat. Workers should be paid for the amount of work they do and for nothing else. (Except in retirement and injury cases.) If the owners fail then the employees lose their jobs. If the workers fail then the owners lose cash. The system could fail but not if everyone does their part.
Vanessa, I really enjoyed reading your essay. It may have been based only on your opinion but I found it more interesting to read as opposed to some who don’t really give their opinion much at all. You brought up a good point, I thought, when you said that both the entrepreneur and the worker need the profit and are important to each other. One without the other just doesn’t cut it- the entrepreneur may have come up with some brilliant ideas but it doesn’t just stop there. It’s true that the entrepreneurs are the ones who came up with ideas and the ones who took the risk, so to speak, so it would make sense for them to bring home the highest profit. But would it be fair? I doubt it. Those who have worked so hard would protest that they weren’t getting paid what they deserve(if they are in any way assertive) which could potentially cause them to wuit in large numbers and cause problems. When it comes down to it, you're right- they need a plan for who gets paid what ahead of time and they need to stick to it and have honestly and integrity.
ReplyDeleteMorgan, I liked the example you used in your essay in answering the question on what fair is. Those who don’t ever work hard and slack off don’t deserve as much pay as those who have worked hard their whole lives to instill a good future. Life isn’t fair- and of course you would feel bad for the person who struggles to make ends meet who does all they can-but robbing the hard worker of what he rightfully earns isn’t fair either. Ignorant people may think that giving everyone the same amount of pay is fair, but what they don’t realize is that that’s not fair in any way to those who did what they were supposed to do the whole time. However, there are many people who do work hard but due to external circumstances were not able to afford college and are stuck in their economic status. So this is another example of just how unfair life can be.
ReplyDeleteEmily, I agree with you as you said "you reap what you sow".I haven't really fully realized how true that is until now. It makes so much since to me that the person who works the hardest shooed get paid more. Most of the rich people not all but most of them had to work hard to get them were they are at today. For an example Bill gates started out building computers as a kid it just proves "you reap what you sow"
ReplyDeleteMaxwell
ReplyDeleteI like what you said "the owner should get paid more because he started the business." Most people don't realize how much stress does go into starting a business. Not knowing if there going to get business or if they will go bankrupt. I also do agree that the owner doesn't need to over pay himself and not give his employees the right amount of money they dis serve. As long as the employees do there work properly as they were told.
In the context of this discussion, what is Fair?
ReplyDeleteFair is giving the most profit to the person(s) who gave the most, but that’s where it gets tough. How do you determine who gave the most? Was it the person who started the company, put in the time effort-and not to mention money-to start the company or was it the workers who keep the entire system working? I think there is nothing that is completely fair to everyone. After all, you can’t please everyone.
How can that fairness be established without unconstitutional government intervention in the workplace? In other words, what kind of agreement must be reached between owners and workers and how can it be maintained for the long-term?
Now I think unions have done a great deal to further our country. Unions are the reason many workers have eight hour days, safe working conditions, and in the past without unions many workers would have had to deal with huge wage cuts. Sadly, many times these strikes lead to violence and many of them, especially in this time, did little for the workers. But, some groups, like the AFL, learned from others and made large advances in the hours and working conditions. The members of the AFL effectively banded together, unlike many unions before them who were weakly bound together, to stage walkouts and even negotiate with the business leaders. The AFL even had funds to help workers on strike letting them force many business owners to at least compromise with them. I think groups like this help keep a fair balance in the workplace. Also, the owners have a big responsibility. In the first place, the owners should do their best to be fair. If the owners of companies tried to be as fair as possible I think some, not all, problems could be solved, and like I said earlier, with a good organized Union workers could negotiate on issues they don’t agree with. I think when all is said and done though fairness can’t ever be 100% established. The old phrase life isn’t fair is a very true quote. It’s nearly impossible to create a completely fair system. (I say nearly impossible because there very well may be a way and I just don’t see it)
What would happen if either side of the equation (owners/workers) were to be too weak to effectively bargain with the other?
Well, I, honestly, think we’ve seen things pretty close to this exact situation. Think of times when workers didn’t realize the power they had; workers had terrible working conditions and pay not nearly up to the cost of living. And, in turn, when the workers overpower the owners then I believe workers may not understand fully what is best for the company as a whole. Either way the company is hurt.
The reap what you sow idea is an excellent example of christian principles being used in everyday life. Your sow hard work you reap rewards. You sow laziness you reap no rewards. That is the way society should work. unfortunately it doesn't always work that way. Many people make gains by dishonest means.
ReplyDeleteMorgan you definition of fairness was very well done. I enjoyed how you highlighted that the government shouldn't be able to take away ones opportunity to make a living.
ReplyDeleteFairness in baseball? I wouldn't say that baseball players have the right to argue about fairness because they signed a contract that guarantees a certain contract. Everything is under regulation in the MLB. Including how the players dress. But, as far as the glory of the win, I think that the glory tends to go to the players anyhow. A-Rod didn't really do anything this time, so he's not really on my mind anyway ha-ha.
ReplyDeleteWhy does is not fall on the coaches always? Well, the major fan base is usually the youth. If you were a child, would you look up to an old guy with a clipboard? No! The coach gets his glory in winning. The players, in playing. If the coach wanted the playing glory, he would probably be playing because that game is easy enough to play at any age. In my opinion, it's all fair.
Madyson i really enjoyed your essay it was good. You are right about fairness not being able to exist in this fallen sinfull world. No matter how hard we try the sinful human nature just wont allow it. Its just a hard fact of life. And communism is certainly not the answer to making things fair because it doesnt. What a person works for they should get. Its far from being fair that a person works hard to earn their money then some of it be taken away to be given to some lazy person that dont work. You dont work you dont eat. I think that saying has great value and should be followed today. Your right about the government not being responsible for the people who dont have what they need. If you are capable of working then by all means you should get out there and work. And if you cant then do what you can and then the church should be there to help you along.
ReplyDeleteMaxwell i agree with you on what you said about the owner gets the most money. Because after all he did risk all he put into that company and he had to supply it or at least come up with somewhere to get what was needed to start the company. He thought it up. And he had to go through all the pains of getting it going and keeping it going. But on the other hand the workers do need to be payed fairly according to their work and treated well. If the owner is cheating them out of their money and they arent getting payed enough then it should be brought to attention.
ReplyDeleteMadyson, I really enjoyed reading your post. I like how you used Webster's definition for "fair" and then backed up all of your statements with scripture. What you said and what you quoted lined up perfectly, it's obvious you really thought your answer through and put some time into it. So yeah, 'kudos' or whatever. haha.
ReplyDeleteDsams,
ReplyDeleteI really enjoyed reading your essay also. I especially like how you brought out the point (or at least eluded to it if I'm understanding correctly...) that he who works the hardest deserves to be payed the most. And how you went on to say that it is hard to say who works harder: the employer (for getting an idea, starting the business and taking a risk by doing all of this) or the employee (for being the muscle behind the entire operation). I think this struggle is most some evidence among an abundance that this word in its flawed state is not now, never was, and never will be 'fair'.
First we will describe what is fair...fair is were both parties evolved get a fair treatment and both get a good deal on each end of the agreement. But this never happens in our world to day and everyone is all bout themselves.
ReplyDeleteSecond in order for this level of fairness to be achieved in business the owner must sit down with the workers and explain in full detail what will be done, how it will be achieved, and how the profits are distributed equally. But with this plan if the owner tries to trick his workers it will cause a big conflict between the two and lead to workers quitting, rebelling against the company to try and take it over or doing anything in there power to shut the company down to keep this from happening to any future employees or friends in the office already .
In reality this plan will never happen due to the fact that everyone in the business world is all about who can make the bigger profit and what benefits them the most. Like the old saying goes "All is fair in love and war" but, they never said a single thing about the world of business.
In reply to Caleben; I really liked how you defined Fairnness as :”everyone gets equal chance, opportunity, or wealth”.and also how you said” Fairness does not exist in an imperfect world. You do not have either of those things in the world, because every circumstance is different. There has to be a loser and a winner. Socialism doesn’t work because it is founded on fairness”I personally believe that this is true and share your opinion on this matter.
ReplyDeleteJ byrd, I liked what you said in the begginning of your essay”Darn...another assignment that'll take a while to do. What is fair? (Not this homework assignment) Well, I'm giving an opinion here, I'm not sure if I know what is truly and ultimately fair, but I'll give my thought on it. As for a balance of fairness between entrepreneurs, workers, and customers, I think that most situations are different and require different distributions. Complete fairness, I think, would exist in a situation where the entrepreneurs and workers get exactly what they deserve to get(but not more) based on the work/risk/creativity/thought/etc. that they contributed from the customer.” I agree with what you said about all buisinesses requiring a different distribution. I like the plan of giving everyone what they deserve,but no more, on paper, but I think that a buisiness model such as this would be hard to achieve in a way that would make everyone happy or atleast content with what theyre getting out of the deal, while still having the technological progress and innovation thaat brought us to where we are today.
ReplyDeletetylerM
ReplyDeleteI really thought it was enlightening the way you discribed "fair". It made a lot of sence to me that it is impossible for it to be fair, and someone make a profit at the same time. great essay
TylerM, when I said that "Complete fairness, I think, would exist in a situation where the entrepreneurs and workers get exactly what they deserve to get(but not more) based on the work/risk/creativity/thought/etc. that they contributed from the customer," I was giving my opinion on the definition of fairness. I know that this would be extremely difficult to actually use in an actual situation, and probably wouldn't work out, because it would be so difficult to achieve, and arguments would probably arise about what each one's work is worth.
ReplyDeleteEmily C., I completely agree with your response. “you reap what you sow” is a perfect way to explain the fairness. A person should earn their wadges according to how much, how hard, and how long they work. Achieving this goal though, is also perfectly explained by the saying “life’s not fair.” It is obvious to most people how to make if fair but it’s nearly impossible with a lot of people just out for cheap money not earning it.
ReplyDeleteAlex I also agree with what you had to say. The owner or entreprenuer should get paid the most for the risk they take. Without entrprenuer’s our economy couldn’t exists. Without them monopolies would start and competition would fail and that would stop the economy. So yes the owners or idea makers shouold bring home the most cash. And I also agree that even though the worker thinks he should get top dollar he should get less due to the fact he is employee not employer.
ReplyDeleteI did want to disagree with someone in my comments, but after reading several of them that I agreed with, and not wanting to start trudging through the essays that were like pages long, I decided just to comment on one that I liked...
ReplyDeleteEmily, your essay was very nice, and I agree with you on what you said (or typed). I liked your definition of fairness. It was kind of similar to the one I posted later in the the basic idea of it. I also agreed with your next answer, and I think that the fairness you described would be hard to achieve, but would work well. I liked your essay; I thought it was pretty good.
Caleb Dobbs,
ReplyDeleteI really like what you said about Jesus describing an attitude not an economic system, and that whole business with the coat. I like it because it just enforces the point that it's our job not the government's to take care of people. For example, this 2,000 page health care bill; I think it would be fine and dandy if everyone had health insurance, and it would also be fine and dandy if we all lived in 10,000 sq. ft. houses and got paid 200,000 dollars a year. It's not that way. Sorry. So, bringing this back to you, Caleb, great job. What you said is the truth; a lot of people need to hear it.
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ReplyDeleteMadyson said...
ReplyDeleteSo I'm gonna be honest here and say it can be hard when we have assignments like this at a "Christian" school, because most people's opinions are relatively the same.(Notice I say most, not all.) I am going to comment on the "don't work don't eat", laziness point that like ten people, including myself, brought up. In my opinion, this is one of the biggest problems in trying to create fairness anywhere, whether it be the home, church, government, economy, etc. You're always going to have those people who want to mooch off others any chance they can, and that creates a downfall for the rest of us. It bugs me when you hear people say they want to create this "fair" world, and everyone has equal opportunity and chance and luck. But I think that in itself is not fair, because you have those who could go so much farther, but they're hindered by the concept of "fairness." Everyone should be paid the same, and we should cut people breaks. That's dumb, if someone goes to college 8 years to be a brain surgeon or lawyer or whatever, they should be rewarded more than a highschool drop out. That's not to say the doctor or whatever is better, but they worked harder and put more effort into their life. The Bible is right (as always), If you don't work you should not eat.
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ReplyDeleteJarred, you’re right, it’s sad but there ISNT a perfect plan for equality between owner and worker. The owner may work hard to create a successful business- there’s nothing wrong with that- but when they start taking advantage of their workers and becoming corrupt, that’s where the trouble begins.
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ReplyDeleteDavid
ReplyDeleteYour post was good. I agree that, if it’s to be fair, the person who gave the most should get the most profit. But if the workers and the owner both do their job, you can’t please everyone in the system. Everything needs to be balanced well or the company struggles.
Charlie, I agreed with part of your post on this topic. You started out well with the mention of the verse about working or not eating. But I didn’t see eye to eye with some things after that point. You’re right that workers shouldn’t be lazy in the first place, but I think the owners should be on the sunny side of the equation. Yes, some of those big time owners out there don’t deserve the money, but owners have to work very hard at first to get it all started. I don’t follow Bill Gates around, but I doubt he is as worthless as you say. However , that’s not a big deal.
ReplyDeleteMaxwell I agree with you. The owner should get paid the most, but not so much that its putting the company out of business. If the business goes under, so does the boss, people start loosing jobs, people get laid off, and salary cuts will be made. GM, Ford, Crysler ECT are perfect examples of companys that pay there executives millions of dollars a year. Executives worked hard to get were they are so they deserve to get paid for there hard work.
ReplyDeleteJessica i agree with you on your essay. The world isnt fair, people get cheated out of a lot of things. Some people work very hard a get nothing, while some dont work at all and they get everything. I mostly think that it depeneds on what kind of family your born into. If your rich you have an advantage if not, you might end up working very hard all your life and accomplish nothing, im not saying there all like that, but the wealthier have an advantage. We just have to face it, thats the world we live in, and it isnt very good.
ReplyDeleteJake, I like that you said we aren't all born into the same opportunities, and it's true. Money, Race, Support, Gender, and Socioeconomic Status (of your family) are all things that(sadly), to some extent, in my opinion, effect our opportunities. It really is, as far as I can tell, impossible to have things completely fair. This is something a lot of other people touched on too, and for good reason. I think many people came to this conclusion because to an extent it's true.
ReplyDeleteMorgan, I like the example you used about the productive man who went to college and the one who was lazy and didn't go to college and how the one man makes a good living and the other one isn't doing well. Just like you said people might feel bad for the guy because he isn't making so much money and the other guy is but whose fault it that. He had the same opportunities the other guy had but he didn't take advantage of them. The other guy took time and effort into school and college and he is reaping the benefit. However much you put into something is the same you will get out of it. The lazy man didn't put much into school so he didn't get much out of it.
ReplyDeleteEmily C.
ReplyDeleteYour essay was great as always. I liked the way you used the Scripture and life lesson, “You reap what you sow.” It’s true in every aspect of our lives. Especially business. I also agreed with the statement you made about the fact that “life is not fair” but we should strive for that “optimal level of fairness.” That’s absolutely true. You’re right. Life is not fair. There are a ton of things in life that are just not fair! But that doesn’t mean we should just throw our hands up and say, “Oh well, let’s just cheat our way to the top and cheat everybody along the way.” NO! We should try to do the best and most honest job that we can. And I believe that ultimately, God sees our true efforts and will reward them. If not down here, in Heaven.
Xalo
You had a really good point when you said that if everybody were good, honest Christian people, we’d have nothing to worry about. That would truly fix our problem. When you really think about what the world would be like if everybody were Christians and loved God, it makes you start to miss Heaven all the more.
Jarred, you pointed out something that I had sorta said, but you made it really clear. There is no perfect political system; no sytem that will allow everyone who wants to be the best they can be stay equal with people who aren't motivated. It just can't happen. I just hadn't thought of it that way before, good point.
ReplyDeleteMady, you do a great job with bringing in Biblical points into a historical debate, but I really liked what you said about welfare being good for those who need it but how at the same time it can be detrimental to a country. It's truly a shame how something meant to be helpful is so abused in our country.
ReplyDeleteOh in my last comment I said that the other guy had the same opportunities and well actually he may not have because not everyone always does but what I meant by that was he still would have gotten more had he put more into it. Sure people aren't the same so therefore the don't have the same maybe you could call them advantages that others have but anyone can put forth an effort to do their best.
ReplyDeleteEmily....
ReplyDeleteOur post were similar so of course i agree with what you say and i really like the fact you used the old saying...."life isn't fair"
Morgan...
ReplyDeleteI liked how you used the fact of the guy who works hard through school to get what he has and the guy who slacks off and want everything that the college guy has
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ReplyDeleteI agree with what Hannah said. People do abuse their power. They do it out of their own self greed. It just sickens me. It seems the more money they have the more power they have. Along with it comes corruption. The ideal economy is one in which the government promotes small business but repels big business. Instead of giving these “bailouts” to big business, the government should give them to small businesses that serve communities.
ReplyDeleteI agree with Colby. Business owners have to work hard to get where they are. Usually the ones that inherit their business usually lose them. I believe that a good leader worked hard to get where he is, and a bad leader is just given his position. A leader should be someone who has experienced the bottom and worked hard to come back up. A good leader should be someone who knows what it is like to be an employee.
ReplyDeleteMorgan, you did a really good job explaining what fair is. And I think you’re right about the worker getting paid for the job he/she does. If someone just sits around all day or only does a job half way, then they aren’t doing their job and in my book don’t even deserve to have a job let alone get paid for it.
ReplyDeleteIt bugs the daylights out of me to see people that don’t do for themselves getting help because people feel sorry for them. Now don’t get me wrong, in some cases it would be ok, but if that person isn’t going to help out and do their part in the world then something needs to be done. The Bible even says that if you don’t work you don’t eat.
I also know that some people can’t help it and are in these situations not because they were lazy or something like that. These are the people that will contribute to not only their families but the people they work for (if they get another job). I also know that God wants us to care for all of these people, no matter what we think about them.
Jessica, I think that you made a good point about us not living in a perfect world. And as you said life isn’t fair. So what do you get when you put the two together? You get exactly what we (as a world) are, people who think they should have everything but that someone should serve it to them on a silver platter while they sit and watch tv. But there are also those that do for themselves and in doing that end up doing for others whether they like it or not.
ReplyDeleteI also agree with you on the fact that the owner should get payed more. My thought on it is that the greater the risk the bigger the profit should be. If someone invests their money in something that fails then they have just lost that money, but the worker didn’t lose anything but time. On the other hand if the owner makes a big profit then he/she will normally give the best or hardest workers a bones or raise.
the word "fair" can be interperted in many different ways in the terms of busniss. first of all there is the owner gettin the most part of the daily eraned wages. second there is the worker gettin the larger amount of the days wages. we all have heard both sides of the story. and we know things can get out of hand. strikes can occur. violence breaks out and people get sent to jail and some are even servirly hurt. fair is when both sides meet a comforable agreement and it creates a comfortable working atmosphere for bith the employer and employee. but unfortunatly this doesnt happen in every case. in order to avoid strikes and violence a sertan kind of agreemnet must be met. i believe that the owner should make the larger amount of the money. however that being said i dont believe that the worker should put in long and hard hours just to be mediokerly paid. we see this happen both ways in our society. such as in the wallmart industry the owner gets alot of the money where as the employees get very little money for there long hours. the employer should be fair to the workers and give them a reasonable amount of money instread of taking advantage of their need for a job.
ReplyDeleteAlex dude i really agree with what you had to say about fairness. The employer should get paid the most for everything they do put at risk. Without the employer our economy would crash more than it already is. Without them competition would be deminished and that would destroy the economy. So yes the employer shouold make the most money. And I also agree that even though the worker thinks he should get the most he should get less becaus he is the worker not the owner.
ReplyDeletemadicane i really like how you brought the Bible stand point in on this matter but I really liked how you were concerned for the welfare of the the employee witched is something alot of peolpe forget about these days but at the same time it can be detrimental to a country. Its truly sad how something meant to be helpful is so abused in our country
ReplyDelete(1)
ReplyDeletewell, Im going to start off by saying that nothing like this is really 100% fair, it is always lenient towards one side or the other. Some people lie, and cheat, and steal just to make some more money when they themselves probably make a lot more than the average American. And as many people have all ready said "You rep what you sow". So years of school and going to college, making good investments, you will reap the benefits.
(2)
Workers and owners can come to agree with payment. How the worker works for a set number of hours making the owner money and profit and in return he is paid for it. There are also other means like earning a commission when you sell something. Now it can be long term by either the employee enjoying it and his current position, or the employer can offer chances for promotion and more money.
(3)
Thats when problems start is when one is to weak. When the workers are to weak they don't get paid enough and they probably will leave or possible strikes. Or the Employer is to weak and employees are overpaid and the profits decreases probably resorting to being bankrupt.
Alex I like what you said about the owners should be paid more for the risk and years they put into it, because thats how the economy works and without that it wouldn't strike the idea of competition.
ReplyDeleteDavid I liked how you said If something is to be fair the majority of the profit should go to the person who has the more time in it and more money invested. But how to regulate the balance to keep the company running smoothly.
ReplyDeleteSam, thanks for the complament. I really like how you compaired the consumer to a barometer. That was clever. I also liked how you compaired averything to a company. This is a really good analogy. You are right that would be the perfect economy.
ReplyDeleteCaleb i like how ou took and applied the question to the time period that we are studying in class. I also like the point that you brought up about the fact that in order for there to be a long term worker there must be some common ground.
ReplyDeleteI believe the owner of a business should get a greater amount of the profits because he did the work to create the business. This is the American way. Just like Andrew Carnegie. He was a great entrepreneur. The "captain of commerce" Andrew Caregie made a company called Carnegie Steel. He came up with the idea to change iron to steel. And eventually he was making one-fourth of the nations steel. It took hard work. He bought everything he needed to run the business - not just the iron, but ships, and railroads, and stuff like that. Carnegie is an example of a person who deserves the greater profits. He worked hard and for many years. It is the American way. Not everyone is going to be able to have their own business. Not everyone can be the boss. There has to be workers. Is it fair? In America I say yes. Everyone can go to school and get an education and work there way to the point of being a business owner if they really want to.
ReplyDeleteSometimes workers have spoken out about whether things are fair or not and they do this by strking. I think strikes can be good if the people are having to work in dangerous ways or if the big boss is cutting their pay just because he doesn't want to pay them. The tape I watched said that strikes do not always work most of the time. People end up going back to work and not getting their ideas met. I think a strike for a good reason is a good thing.
I think the way to keep things fair between the owner and the worker is to have a contract. This way the worker's rights are protected. He will know how many hours he has to work and the pay he will get and if he will get a raise. This way there won't be any troubles.
If the worker or owner were not strong enough then the business would hurt and it might even fail.
Vanessa Wyatt I agree with you that the entrepreneur has gone to the biggest amount of trouble to get his business up and going. Like you said "it could crash and burn." It is a risk. I think that means more money for him. There is a lot of work in doing something like starting your own company. I like your idea of a blue print. This way there are not any surprises. I liked your post.
ReplyDeleteMorgan I think you made a good point about the high school students. If a person, works hard, studies hard, makes good grades, goes to college, and graduates and makes a life for themselves that is great. He deserves to make good money. But the guy that didn't do so good with his life - who slacked off in school and did just enough to get by and then got a little job that didn't pay much - that is his own fault because he didn't try hard enough. Good job. I liked your post.
ReplyDeletefirst, fair to me is what you put into is what you get out, thats fair. if you only put minimal effort into school or your life or college, you may go through life flippin burgers at mcd's. that may be what you want to do, but not me. since i have to go to school and college, i may as well try my best and succeed and go into the work force with an above average job that slides me through life pretty easily. some people may not see that fair, but its not my fault they didnt apply themselves when they had a chance.
ReplyDeletesecond, i think that for "peace in the workplace" between the owner and the employee is very important. obviously if you dont like your employer due to something he does or has done to you, your not going to try as hard and do as good of a job as if your relationship was on good terms. one thing you could do to keep a good relationship without the intervention of the gov't, would be find a job and employer with similar beliefs so theres no controversy in the workplace about this or that and the other. another thing is dont step on your employers toes. if you have only been there a few months, whereas someone else has been there a few years, dont complain about the other persons benefits because they have been there longeer. just stuff like that.
third, if either side of the eqaution is too weak, well your gonna have problems. if the employer is too weak and has no discipline on his employees, then the employees will take advantage of that and not be doing what they are being paid to do. on the other hand if the employee is too weak in the workplace, weak meaning not working well, then someones gonna get fired. either way its not healthy to do so. it is better to have a job with a well balenced work enviroment.
morgan i really like how u talked about how the lazy man gets what he deserves as does the man who worked hard in school and is making life easily. i feel the same way. if you dont have a work ethic, wellyour not gonna do well in the real world
ReplyDeleteashley glass, i agree with the owner recieving the majority of the profits over the worker as well. the worker may be an essential part in a business, but the owner really puts in alot more time and effort. that business becomes their life. they have to get there early and leave late. it only seems fair.
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